Talk:Mir Jumla II

Mu'azzam v Muazzam

Bengal_Subah#Administrative_divisions mentions:

In 1660, Muazzam Khan (Mir Jumla) again shifted the capital to Dhaka.

Here it only says "Mu'azzam Khan" though. Which is correct? Ranze (talk) 19:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Unreliable source(s)?

This:

• "A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, Vol. 3., by Horace Arthur Rose.
  

is not a reliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:41, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Oddly, the Banglapedia source, calls him Iranian.

• "An Iranian by birth, his original name was Mir Muhammad Said. He received various titles from the Mughal emperor such as Muazzam Khan, Khan-i-Khanan, Sipahsalar and Yar-i-Wafahdar, but he became more popular in history of Bengal as Mir Jumla." --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:04, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

• "A History of Modern India, 1480-1950, page 104-105, ed. Claude Markovits, "Aurangzeb's ambitions were favoured by the act of treason committed by an Iranian adventurer, Mir Jumla..."
• "Asia in the Making of Europe, Volume III: A Century of Advance., Book 2, by Donald F. Lach, Edwin J. Van Kley, page 698, " In the Deccan, meanwhile, Aurangzib is befriended by “Emir Jumla” (Mir Jumla), a famous Persian general..." --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Iranian is not etnicity. Azeri, Arab, Kurd can also be Iranian. The third source also definetely uses Persian as Iranian (Persia/Iran). Qizilbash is ethnicity and I can't get why we must not use the glossary given above. John Francis Templeson (talk) 13:20, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

So you condemn a reliable source(University of Chicago Press) while using a source written by a civil servant with no academic standing? Explain just exactly how, Horace Arthur Rose is a reliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:07, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't condemn them, they just do not contradict to this source. Just for information: reliability of sources is based not on academic degree of writer, but on positive reviews by other scholars. So, some academician may not be a reliable author and some amateur writer may. I will return some time later and we will continue. Bye. John Francis Templeson (talk) 17:46, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Still making up your own rules, I see.

• "I don't condemn them, they just do not contradict to this source."

Actually that is exactly what these sources do, contradict a source written by a civil servant with no academic specialization in the Mughal Empire.

• "Qizilbash is ethnicity..."

Not according to, Frontier Nomads of Iran: A Political and Social History of the Shahsevan, Richard Tapper, Cambridge University Press, page 44. So your theory that the Qizilbash is an ethnicity is wrong.

• "I can't get why we must not use the glossary given above"

Because an English civil servant living in late 19th century India is not an authority for Mughal India.

• "So, some academician may not be a reliable author and some amateur writer may."

And the burden of proof falls on you. You have to prove H.A. Rose, Ibbetson, or MacLagan, had any specialization in this particular time period, else this source is unreliable. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's another one:

• Chief Merchants and the European Enclaves of Seventeenth-Century Coromandel, Joseph J. Brennig, Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 11, No. 3 (1977), pp. 325, "Certainly Mir Jumla, the Persian merchant turned general and administrator...". --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

And another one:

• The Indian Maritime Merchant, 1500-1800, Om Prakash, Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient, Vol. 47, No. 3, Between the Flux and Facts of Indian History: Papers in Honor of Dirk Kolff (2004), page 450, "A case in point was that of Mir Muhammad Sayyid Ardestani, a Persian adventurer who made a fortune in the diamond trade and rose to the office of sar-i khail of the Sultanate of Golkonda. In 1643, he was appointed mir jumla and nawab.... --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

And the hits just keep coming:

• The English Gentleman Merchant at Work: Madras and the City of London 1660-1740, by Søren Mentz, page 30, "The best documented career among these Persian portfolio merchants is that of Muhammad Sayyid Ardestani". --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Eh. That's because your source, that is "supposed" to show a Qizilbash origin for the person in question, fails RS. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Multiple issues

This is written more as a fanpage glorifying Mir Jumla, sources are unreliable and smalltime authors, and soime passages are blatant POV. Some of this has been highlighted by other editors above. 202.156.182.84 (talk) 16:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Qizilbash military or turkic tribes

• Ecnyclopedia Britannica: Kizilbash, Turkish Kizilbaş, (“Red Head”), any member of the seven Turkmen tribes who wore red caps to signify their support of the founders of the Ṣafavid dynasty (1501–1736) in Iran.

• Rudi, MattheePersia in Crisis:Safavid Dynasty. p. 27. From its inception Safavid state had relied on the military power of the Qizilbash, the Turkoman tribesmen...

• Encyclopedia Iranica, Safavid Dynasty. Their main supporters were Turkmen tribal groups known as the Qezelbāš (Qizilbāš)

• YILDIRIM, RIZA. TURKOMANS BETWEEN TWO EMPIRES. p. 28. As will be partly evaluated in Chapter VIII, immediately following the foundation of the Safavid state in 1501, two fundamentally different and contesting groups appeared within the Safavid realm: on the one side there was the Turcoman (tribal) qizilbash military aristocracy, which founded the state and held military ranks.

• Кызылбаши. БСЭ. Архивировано из первоисточника 5 ноября 2012.

Also Qizilbash is modern-day ethnic group in Afghanistan [1] John Francis Templeson (talk) 13:30, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

1) This has literally jack to do with this article. 2) Joshua Project is not a reliable source. 3) Kansas Bear has posted (section above) numerous reliable sources that mention an Iranian origin. Not a single one shows a Qizilbash origin for the individual here in question. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

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